Episode Transcript

Jake Braun:

Welcome to Kicking It with Kapok, a podcast about business owners, marketing struggles and solutions and other business-related topics.
I'm Jake.

Mirela Setkic:

And I'm Mirela.

Jake Braun:

And this, is episode 13, "Off-the-record Marketing Questions and Answers."
Today, Mirela and I will be talking about some of the behind the scenes audio we captured after one of our recent podcast episodes and our guest, Dale Baker was kind enough to let us release some of our candid audio recording that we had with him as part of our episode today.

Jake Braun:

Mirela, why don't you tell us a little bit more about what we have in store for the listeners today.

Mirela Setkic:

Well, there was so much marketing gold in our conversation with Dale, we couldn't leave it on the cutting room floor so, we decided to package it into another episode.
In our conversation, we talked about influencers like you know, Kim Kardashians in the world and maybe some less popular people and also, e-mail marketing dos and don'ts. Should you buy an e-mail list? And what is the good and bad and evil side of that and also, I think we also touched upon direct mail and is it dead? Does it still work for companies?
We also talked about some other stuff and I think there should be a lot of good stuff or, golden nuggets that our listeners will enjoy.

Jake Braun:

Yep. I think Dale had a lot of insightful questions and I really appreciate that he asked those questions and that he agreed to let us play this audio.
So, without further ado, lets listen to what we talked about a couple of weeks ago with Dale.

Mirela Setkic:

All right. Lets do it.

Dale Baker:

What do you guys think about celebrity endorsements?

Mirela Setkic:

Oh, like influencers? Or like, real celebrities?

Dale Baker:

No, well, influencers that's... Oh my God, that's a great marketing comment. I wouldn't even have considered saying an influencer, not even a celebrity, you know?

Mirela Setkic:

So, which one are you talking about?

Dale Baker:

Well, give me the difference so I make sure I understand.

Mirela Setkic:

Okay. So, influencer, is someone who has a very large social media following but, is not per se like, Brad Pitt or whatever.

Dale Baker:

Right.

Mirela Setkic:

And, so, companies pay them money to pretty much do product placements on their Instagram or Facebook posts.

Jake Braun:

A lot of people in the fitness space. There's a lot of people with like, a million plus followers that are just in really good shape and sell beauty products and-

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Jake Braun:

You know, protein shakes and stuff like that.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, but, there's kind of like a fine line. Like, is Kim Kardashian a celebrity or she's an influencer? She's kind of like, blurring that line.

Jake Braun:

I think she's both. I think any celebrity that starts using their profile to sell stuff is also an influencer but, I think there's a lot of influencers out there that aren't celebrities.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes.

Jake Braun:

'Cause they don't have that widespread like, notoriety in the public space.

Mirela Setkic:

So, your question is, what do we think about it? Is it a good idea?

Dale Baker:

Well, yes. And I guess you could sort of answer that by saying, "Yes, you guys have done it and here's a success story." Or, "We've tried it and it just wasn't the right product for it or the right influencer."

Mirela Setkic:

Um, we have not done it as Kapok Marketing. We did do some with the previous place of employment. We had like, online clothing stores and like, accessories so, we would send out free items to people in exchange for them posting stuff. And, that worked out.
So, I think, as long as your audience and that influencer's audience are a good match and you know, there's a cross-over there, it can be very successful. But, it obviously has to be presented in a creative way and it can't be like, too like, salesy. Like, "Buy my product!"

Dale Baker:

Right, right.

Jake Braun:

It's tough with B to B too. I think it's mostly just B to C that that sort of stuff works.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Dale Baker:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jake Braun:

You gotta match it up perfectly so that most of the people who follow the influencer would actually buy the product. So, it really only works if you have a really good synergy between the followers of a particular influencer and the product or, the product is just something so widespread that anyone could use it. So, all that matters is the raw number of followers and engagement of that influencer.

Dale Baker:

Word on.
Yeah, my friend works for Monster Energy Drink and-

Mirela Setkic:

Mmm.

Dale Baker:

I gotta tell you, it is amazing what I've seen those guys do-

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Dale Baker:

Over the past couple of years.
It's like, they went from zero to a million miles an hour and it's mostly like, hey, giving rockstars Monster Energy Drinks while they're on stage or whatever. And all of a sudden, that becomes a thing. I mean, that goes back to like, just a guitar you know, like a Gibson guitar you know, used by Angus Young is different than, you know, some other, Brand X, whatever somebody else may be using, so...

Mirela Setkic:

Oh, yeah. And I think it definitely works. Especially, if you can get someone whose famous in like, the pop culture scene, or even in like your nich or niche market. If that person is someone of popular status or, authority, it can definitely work really well.

Jake Braun:

And, I think the thing that Dale's talking about is something that almost pre-dates influencer marketing which is what a lot of people did before that, it's just send free new products to celebrities, hoping that they'll wear them or use them out in public.

Mirela Setkic:

Dale did a little bit of that.

Dale Baker:

You know it. That's me.

Mirela Setkic:

Didn't we try that with Rock Jimmy?

Dale Baker:

Yeah, Rock Jimmy. We put Rock Jimmy in full-on clothing and also, we did that with a lot of rockstar dudes and that was cool. I mean, full on still going. It's pretty interesting.

Mirela Setkic:

Really?

Dale Baker:

Yeah. Believe it or not. Um-

Mirela Setkic:

So, you're still like managing? What was that guy? Talent something? Or...

Dale Baker:

Skylar Talent.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Dale Baker:

In fact, I'm going to call him later on but, no, full on management had full on clothing and full on clothing is still a valuable product and you know, to this day it's like a musician's friend, still making purchases on that so, it's pretty interesting.

Mirela Setkic:

Really?

Dale Baker:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

You know, what about that one lady who used to do those shirts? I know you gave me one. It was like waffle versus pancake.

Dale Baker:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

And it was like, one of my favorite shirts ever.

Dale Baker:

Yeah. That was a really cool, she's a really super talented artist.
I believe that was Lynn Kennedy, maybe.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes. Yes.

Dale Baker:

I think that was her name.
Anyways, we haven't talked in a while. I'm not certain what she's been up to but, I gotta say, super talented and that was such a cool thing because you know, to be part of that was just a nice, you know, feather in my cap to say like, "I'm working with some really talented artists like that."
But, yeah. Its one of those interesting things. You know, the clothing industry is just totally bananas to begin with, so-

Mirela Setkic:

Its tough.

Dale Baker:

Yeah, that was interesting. But, you know, I had another question. I don't wanna change gears too quick on you guys but, let me ask you something.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes.

Dale Baker:

What's the right amount of e-mails to send people, in terms of you know, the blasts that you know, to announce a new product or just kind of keep you in my top of mind I guess, is what it would be called but...
How often should somebody send something and how much content is really necessary?

Mirela Setkic:

Well, how interesting is your content?

Dale Baker:

Well, obviously I'm sending it.

Mirela Setkic:

Okay. Well, you know if you, Dale Baker are like, a personality and everyone really wants to talk to you and like, the stuff is coming from the keyboard or the desk of Dale Baker then maybe like, a weekly check-in is good or, maybe even twice a week.
If it's something that is less fresh and less exciting them probably, maybe like once a week or every other week and like, more in moderation.
The more... the salesier it is, it should be, I guess the less frequently it should be sent out because you don't want to annoy people too much with just like, sales promotions.

Jake Braun:

And if you have a lot of e-mail subscribers, ideally what you would do is, separate it out.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Jake Braun:

And if the people who always open it, you would segment them out and you could send them stuff maybe daily, or...

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Jake Braun:

You know, however frequently you wan't 'cause you know that they're super interested but, the people who maybe aren't, you send them less frequently.

Mirela Setkic:

Exactly.

Dale Baker:

Excellent.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, so you can like, think of the ones who always open everything as like, your Apostles. They wanna hear everything you wanna say, they take it all in and they even tell other people about it. With them, you can communicate way more often than the ones who just every now and then open your e-mail.

Dale Baker:

Yeah.
What do you guys think about buying lists?

Mirela Setkic:

No.

Jake Braun:

No.

Dale Baker:

No. That's a hard no.

Mirela Setkic:

That is a hard no.
And, number one, these people don't know you. They're not expecting to hear from you.
Number two, you might be breaking some rules of e-mail marketing service companies like, Mail Chimp and Infusion Soft because, when you sign up for those accounts, you kind of, you agree that all of these people have given you permission and they have opted in to be e-mailed. And when you buy a list, that hasn't happened so, you are essentially turning yourself into a spammer.

Jake Braun:

And especially if you're using this with an established company. I would say, if you do want to do that, what you really need to do is kind of separate it from everything else you're doing because, all the e-mail providers like, keep track of like, the reputation for every domain. So, if you're sending mail from [inaudible 00:09:30] and you send a lot of spam, all these people are going to think that that domain is bad, and they're gonna start putting your e-mails either in inbox, they're gonna put them in spam, they might just deprioritize them a little bit.
So, it's best to just keep it super separate if you're going to do something like that though, we wouldn't recommend it.

Dale Baker:

Wow.
That is so nuts. You guys have so much going on now. 'Cause it's like, not only do you just have to work on figuring how to sell something but its like, knowing that technology component and the back end of that.
It just seems so, like, oh God, cumbersome.

Mirela Setkic:

Its forever, its evolving and it's always like a moving target so, that's kind of what Jake does. He keeps up with all of the technology and I try to catch up and then, I try to do a lot of the creative stuff and kind of be like, the face of the company and...
But yeah, it's definitely constantly changing and most people are constantly behind so, not only do we have to educate ourselves but, we have to educate our audience and be kind of, the marketers and the teachers.

Dale Baker:

Yeah. I listened to about three different marketing podcasts. Ones on a weekly basis, ones on a daily basis and, you gotta read a lot of stuff, listen to a lot of stuff to stay up to date on everything 'cause it changes so fast, like you said.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.
And like, we do this like, for real. We're not just... there are a lot of like, marketing companies who are kind of like Charlatans out there and they're just like, selling you the magic. And, we actually try really hard to like, sell good things to people and to truly stand behind everything that we sell and that we fully understand what we're selling.
So, there's a lot of learning going on.

Dale Baker:

Yeah, 'cause the thing you mention is a great example, there's a lot of marketers out there who will do that e-mail thing where, they'll sell you a huge list, they'll even come up with the e-mail and send it to them and they'll collect a large amount of money from you and then two or three months later when all of the e-mails from your company are going directly into spam, they're gone, they have their money.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Dale Baker:

And, what do you do then?

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, be very careful.
And you know, sometimes, people will buy a list and then they will contaminate their good list that they have like, built organically by adding the purchase list and then now, the good list has been kind of bastardized by the bad list. So now, they just have a hot mess situation.

Dale Baker:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mirela Setkic:

And uh, we've also had clients like, Jake talked about earlier who have sent out so many e-mail messages, marketing e-mail messages that Google has kind of blacklisted their domain and then now, when they e-mail people, their messages just go to spam.

Jake Braun:

Yeah, Google has a few different like, tabs and folders now, they have things that are like, from you know, promotional e-mails. They also have priority inbox so, there's a bunch of different places your e-mails can get moved to. Even if they're not technically in spam, they can get seen by less people if Google thinks that you're not that reputable.

Dale Baker:

Wow.

Mirela Setkic:

That's right.
So, did you buy a list, Dale?

Dale Baker:

No. No, no, no.

Mirela Setkic:

Okay. Don't do it.

Dale Baker:

No. I just thought it was a really good topic for conversation.

Jake Braun:

It is.

Mirela Setkic:

You should have a list and you should be collecting information on your website. You should be collecting people's e-mails and that is one of the must do things but, don't buy lists.

Dale Baker:

Okay.
What about marketing through the texting situation? What do you think about that?

Mirela Setkic:

Its good.

Jake Braun:

That's big. We don't, we haven't gotten too deep into that but, there definitely are a lot of people who are doing it. I think they're successful with it.

Mirela Setkic:

Yes. It's good if its done right. If its appropriate and you're not texting people at bad hours and, it definitely cannot sound like it was sent by a robot.

Dale Baker:

No.

Mirela Setkic:

Your personality and your voice needs to be in it and I think its great.
I love receiving text message like, coupons or, appointment reminders and anything that makes my life easier and better, I'm okay with.

Jake Braun:

There's a lot of other stuff that's going on with the two like, it's a really great lead capture mechanism like, those people will say like, "Text this number, text this phrase to this number." But what they might not realize is, they then, the company gets their phone number, then that company can aggregate those phone numbers and give them to Google or Facebook and target ads towards those people because, Google and Facebook know your phone number.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Jake Braun:

So, they can move it into, you know, other spaces to advertise towards you.

Dale Baker:

Wow.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah, so, its kind of like, undercover.

Dale Baker:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

Getting your information and you think that you're just entering a contest.

Dale Baker:

Yeah. That's so amazing.
Like, I'm so blown away by that kind of stuff 'cause its like all of a sudden, you know, you may be talking to somebody about a particular thing, a product, etc, etc or, you'll e-mail somebody or, however it works. And all of a sudden, you start getting ads for those. Isn't that crazy?

Mirela Setkic:

That's right.

Jake Braun:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

Big Brother is listening, Dale.

Dale Baker:

That blows my mind.
Okay. Speaking of mind blown.

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah?

Dale Baker:

Jake, let me ask you a question.
When's the last time you went to the mailbox and opened it up and got something that you were like, "Oh, I wanna respond to this." Whether it be with your pocketbook or, do anything besides a bill?

Jake Braun:

I don't even get bills via mail.
The only thing I would respond to in the mail is, I don't know, a letter from the IRS maybe, like...

Dale Baker:

Wow.

Mirela Setkic:

Well, you know, I, I think you're like, touching on like, direct mail.
I think direct mail can be good, only if its like, super personalized, super beautiful, kind of like, exclusive invitation, I wanna make you feel special type of thing.
People will open that because, at the end of the day, all of us want to feel special. So, if you're direct mail piece accomplishes that, its good. Otherwise, its just trash.

Jake Braun:

And my response was just on a personal level as a marketer. I think direct mail still has a lot of huge opportunities for companies.

Mirela Setkic:

Just like, with anything, what's old is new again so..

Dale Baker:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

Um, everything is you know, coming back so...
Direct mail is not dead. It just needs to be done right.

Dale Baker:

Yeah.
I'm always shocked at how Bed Bath Beyond could always have those...

Mirela Setkic:

Its the coupon! The 20% and you know, it never expires.

Dale Baker:

Yeah.

Jake Braun:

I have a friend whose entire business model is mailing people handwritten letters and, that's the only way that he gets-

Mirela Setkic:

Yeah.

Jake Braun:

Very large ticket purchases like, from people who are very high networked individuals like, 10 million dollars plus net worth. He just mails them all a handwritten letter and that's his entire business.

Mirela Setkic:

Yep.

Dale Baker:

Holy smokes.

Mirela Setkic:

I know. You just gotta find your niche and your spot and you know, a place that's going to be a good match for your voice and your personality and, it's all about making people feel special.

Dale Baker:

Yeah.

Mirela Setkic:

That's it.

Dale Baker:

Hmm. Well, you guys made me feel special today.

Mirela Setkic:

Did we Dale?

Dale Baker:

Yes. Thank you for the time and answering all my questions. That was really awesome.

Jake Braun:

All right. So, that's the conversation that we had with Dale Baker a couple of weeks ago.
Is there anything else that you think we should mention before we close out today's episode, Mirela?

Mirela Setkic:

Well, if there's anyone out there in Tampa Bay area or just the universe in general whose listening to this episode and they have questions about e-mail marketing, questions about hiring influencers to promote their products or services or even, questions about direct mail or anything in regard to marketing in general, definitely reach out to us and we will always do our best to help you out and answer your questions.

Jake Braun:

I agree.
And, if you're enjoying the podcast, we would really appreciate it if you could subscribe and rate or review us wherever you listened to the podcast. We appreciate it a lot and it helps new listeners find us and it helps us keep the podcast going. So, if you have a couple extra minutes, go ahead and do that and we would be super, super appreciative.
I think it's been a great 13th episode and would like to again, thank Dale Baker for letting us use this audio. Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions or comments about anything we talked about today, or marketing in general. You can visit us on our website, KickinItWithKapok.com, or on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter as Kapok Marketing.
This has been Kickin' it with Kapok brought to you by Kapok Marketing. Thanks for listening. We'll have something just as great for you next time.